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	<title>Comments on: Opinions of Category Theory</title>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1352</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Walt, I cannot speak for Peter (since I don&#039;t know the specific examples that he had in mind when he wrote that) but the concrete Ur-example that I think of is Grothendieck&#039;s reworking (and algebraic proof) of the Riemann-Roch theorem from a statement about pairs of varieties to a statement about morphisms between varieties. The properties of maps preserving structure become the important thing, not the objects themselves. I guess my answer is then: all three.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt, I cannot speak for Peter (since I don&#8217;t know the specific examples that he had in mind when he wrote that) but the concrete Ur-example that I think of is Grothendieck&#8217;s reworking (and algebraic proof) of the Riemann-Roch theorem from a statement about pairs of varieties to a statement about morphisms between varieties. The properties of maps preserving structure become the important thing, not the objects themselves. I guess my answer is then: all three.</p>
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		<title>By: srandby</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1349</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[srandby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been reading this blog for some time, but this is my first comment. I&#039;ve found this discussion interesting because it brings back memories of my exposure to category theory in graduate school.

First, I&#039;m a graph theorist. I&#039;ve always been interested in graph struture theory, mainly along the lines of the theorems of Robertson and Seymour (Neil Robertson was my advisor). I&#039;m interested in what category theory has to say about the structure of graphs, but I&#039;ve not found anything of note that it has to say.

I purchased Mac Lane&#039;s &quot;Categories for the Working Mathematician&quot; a long time ago, but my copy is in near mint condition. Mostly, I&#039;ve been too busy with other things to read it, but part of my failure to study the work has been an inability to find any truth to its title.

I first encountered categories at the beginning of an algebraic topology course. My instructor briefly discussed some of the basics, stated that category theory was useful, and then dropped it. At that time, it appeared to me that category theory was way to0 general to be able to use in the course. Plus, I didn&#039;t understand it anyway.

Once, Mac Lane came to give a talk. During the talk, in front of a packed audience, he stated that matroid theory wasn&#039;t good or important mathematics, pissing off several faculty who worked in matroid theory. I found this comment to be very bizarre. Here was an advocate of a vast generalization of dubious importance dismissing a generalization of vector spaces that has tremendous importance. Was Mac Lane jealous or just cutting down people he didn&#039;t like?

Now, I&#039;m not putting down category theory, I just don&#039;t see how it is useful in my work. I find set theory to be immensely useful, so maybe, as others have noted here, my mindset is too set theoretical. But category theory seems to me to say little about everything. But maybe I just lack knowledge of category theory. Perhaps, one day, someone will show me that category theory says something important about the structure of graphs. How wonderful that day will be.

Scott Randby]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading this blog for some time, but this is my first comment. I&#8217;ve found this discussion interesting because it brings back memories of my exposure to category theory in graduate school.</p>
<p>First, I&#8217;m a graph theorist. I&#8217;ve always been interested in graph struture theory, mainly along the lines of the theorems of Robertson and Seymour (Neil Robertson was my advisor). I&#8217;m interested in what category theory has to say about the structure of graphs, but I&#8217;ve not found anything of note that it has to say.</p>
<p>I purchased Mac Lane&#8217;s &#8220;Categories for the Working Mathematician&#8221; a long time ago, but my copy is in near mint condition. Mostly, I&#8217;ve been too busy with other things to read it, but part of my failure to study the work has been an inability to find any truth to its title.</p>
<p>I first encountered categories at the beginning of an algebraic topology course. My instructor briefly discussed some of the basics, stated that category theory was useful, and then dropped it. At that time, it appeared to me that category theory was way to0 general to be able to use in the course. Plus, I didn&#8217;t understand it anyway.</p>
<p>Once, Mac Lane came to give a talk. During the talk, in front of a packed audience, he stated that matroid theory wasn&#8217;t good or important mathematics, pissing off several faculty who worked in matroid theory. I found this comment to be very bizarre. Here was an advocate of a vast generalization of dubious importance dismissing a generalization of vector spaces that has tremendous importance. Was Mac Lane jealous or just cutting down people he didn&#8217;t like?</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not putting down category theory, I just don&#8217;t see how it is useful in my work. I find set theory to be immensely useful, so maybe, as others have noted here, my mindset is too set theoretical. But category theory seems to me to say little about everything. But maybe I just lack knowledge of category theory. Perhaps, one day, someone will show me that category theory says something important about the structure of graphs. How wonderful that day will be.</p>
<p>Scott Randby</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jul 2006 04:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The sci.physics.research thread contains an example of the kind of thing that makes me crazy.  Admittedly, it&#039;s a second-hand report, so it could be misleading:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
At some point Joachim Lambek realized that the lambda calculus was
basically just another way of talking about cartesian closed categories.
More precisely, if you ask in what sort of category you can do lambda
calculus, the answer is: a cartesian closed category.  

He told me that he presented this result at a conference on lambda
calculus, naively hoping that henceforth the subject would be recognized
as a small branch of category theory and basically go away.  As an older,
wiser man, he now realizes that not everyone doing lambda calculus *wants* to see it subsumed by category theory!  
&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sci.physics.research thread contains an example of the kind of thing that makes me crazy.  Admittedly, it&#8217;s a second-hand report, so it could be misleading:</p>
<blockquote><p>
At some point Joachim Lambek realized that the lambda calculus was<br />
basically just another way of talking about cartesian closed categories.<br />
More precisely, if you ask in what sort of category you can do lambda<br />
calculus, the answer is: a cartesian closed category.  </p>
<p>He told me that he presented this result at a conference on lambda<br />
calculus, naively hoping that henceforth the subject would be recognized<br />
as a small branch of category theory and basically go away.  As an older,<br />
wiser man, he now realizes that not everyone doing lambda calculus *wants* to see it subsumed by category theory!
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Marc Hamann</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1346</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Hamann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jul 2006 23:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1346</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
(I donâ€™t know how else to interpret Lawvereâ€™s plan to make category theory the foundations of mathematics).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think a better way to phrase Lawvere&#039;s plan, as I understand it, is to make CT &lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; foundation for mathematics; different approaches to mathematical formulation bring out different insights more readily.

Any intellectual field that becomes &quot;trendy&quot; can sometimes generate more heat than light in the stampede to get it into theses ;-), but I agree with other posters who think that one of the fundamental insights of CT, the discovery that mapping the same mathematical idea into a different formulation can bring out a better understanding of the idea, is a profound mathematical insight. 

Having multiple equivalent &quot;foundations&quot; for mathematics is a natural extension of this idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
(I donâ€™t know how else to interpret Lawvereâ€™s plan to make category theory the foundations of mathematics).
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think a better way to phrase Lawvere&#8217;s plan, as I understand it, is to make CT <i>a</i> foundation for mathematics; different approaches to mathematical formulation bring out different insights more readily.</p>
<p>Any intellectual field that becomes &#8220;trendy&#8221; can sometimes generate more heat than light in the stampede to get it into theses ;-), but I agree with other posters who think that one of the fundamental insights of CT, the discovery that mapping the same mathematical idea into a different formulation can bring out a better understanding of the idea, is a profound mathematical insight. </p>
<p>Having multiple equivalent &#8220;foundations&#8221; for mathematics is a natural extension of this idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1345</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jul 2006 04:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1345</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter &amp; Michael: I&#039;m curious what in particular you have in mind.  Homology/homological algebra/homotopy, or something else?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter &#038; Michael: I&#8217;m curious what in particular you have in mind.  Homology/homological algebra/homotopy, or something else?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steven H. Cullinane</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven H. Cullinane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding this morning&#039;s comments by Peter and Michael:

See &quot;From the Erlangen Program to Category Theory,&quot; a weblog entry from Dec. 3, 2002, at
http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding this morning&#8217;s comments by Peter and Michael:</p>
<p>See &#8220;From the Erlangen Program to Category Theory,&#8221; a weblog entry from Dec. 3, 2002, at<br />
<a href="http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven H. Cullinane</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1343</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven H. Cullinane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On this morning&#039;s comments by PeterMcB and michael:

This weblog entry at
http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html 
from Dec. 3, 2002, seems relevant.

From the Erlangen Program
to Category Theory

See the following, apparently all by Jean-Pierre Marquis, DÃ©partement de Philosophie, UniversitÃ© de MontrÃ©al:

    * Introduction:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPMarquis_Introduction.htm
    * Chapter 1: Klein&#039;s Erlangen program:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre1.rtf
    * Chapter 2: Eilenberg &amp; Mac Laneâ€™s methodological extension:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre2.rtf
    * Chapter 3: Basic principles of category theory:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre3.rtf

See also the following by Marquis:

    * Category Theory (article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy):
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/category-theory/
and
    *  Categories, Sets, and the Nature of Mathematical Entities (abstract):
http://www.univ-nancy2.fr/ACERHP/colloques/symp02/abstracts/marquis.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On this morning&#8217;s comments by PeterMcB and michael:</p>
<p>This weblog entry at<br />
<a href="http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.xanga.com/m759/7315944/item.html</a><br />
from Dec. 3, 2002, seems relevant.</p>
<p>From the Erlangen Program<br />
to Category Theory</p>
<p>See the following, apparently all by Jean-Pierre Marquis, DÃ©partement de Philosophie, UniversitÃ© de MontrÃ©al:</p>
<p>    * Introduction:<br />
<a href="http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPMarquis_Introduction.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPMarquis_Introduction.htm</a><br />
    * Chapter 1: Klein&#8217;s Erlangen program:<br />
<a href="http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre1.rtf" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre1.rtf</a><br />
    * Chapter 2: Eilenberg &amp; Mac Laneâ€™s methodological extension:<br />
<a href="http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre2.rtf" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre2.rtf</a><br />
    * Chapter 3: Basic principles of category theory:<br />
<a href="http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre3.rtf" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/seminar/JPM-Chapitre3.rtf</a></p>
<p>See also the following by Marquis:</p>
<p>    * Category Theory (article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy):<br />
<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/category-theory/" rel="nofollow">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/category-theory/</a><br />
and<br />
    *  Categories, Sets, and the Nature of Mathematical Entities (abstract):<br />
<a href="http://www.univ-nancy2.fr/ACERHP/colloques/symp02/abstracts/marquis.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.univ-nancy2.fr/ACERHP/colloques/symp02/abstracts/marquis.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: physics musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on category theory</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1342</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[physics musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on category theory]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] While reading this mildly entertaining discussion (among mathematicians) on the merits and misdemeanours of category theory, i&#8217;ve stumbled upon this sci.physics.research thread (also available here) with the subject How does category theory help?. The thread starts with a skeptic tone, as exemplified by this fun quote:  is almost impossible for me to read contemporary mathematicians who, instead of saying Petya washed his hands,&#8221; write simply: There is a t1 &lt; 0 such that the image of t1 under the natural mapping t1 -&gt; Petya(t1) belongs to the set of dirty hands, and a t2, t1 &lt; t2 &lt;= 0, such that the image of t2 under the above-mentioned mapping belongs to the complement of the set defined in the preceding sentence.&#8221; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] While reading this mildly entertaining discussion (among mathematicians) on the merits and misdemeanours of category theory, i&#8217;ve stumbled upon this sci.physics.research thread (also available here) with the subject How does category theory help?. The thread starts with a skeptic tone, as exemplified by this fun quote:  is almost impossible for me to read contemporary mathematicians who, instead of saying Petya washed his hands,&#8221; write simply: There is a t1 &lt; 0 such that the image of t1 under the natural mapping t1 -&gt; Petya(t1) belongs to the set of dirty hands, and a t2, t1 &lt; t2 &lt;= 0, such that the image of t2 under the above-mentioned mapping belongs to the complement of the set defined in the preceding sentence.&#8221; [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You forgot to mention Peter, that this is actually an insanely deep realization.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You forgot to mention Peter, that this is actually an insanely deep realization.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: PeterMcB</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PeterMcB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/06/24/opinions-of-category-theory/#comment-1340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think one key revolution in mathematics in the 20th century was the realization that to answer the question:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;What are the properties of this collection of objects?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

considerable value could be got by answering instead this question:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;What transformations of the objects in the collection leave them unchanged?  &quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The second question, unlike the first, is essentially a categorical one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one key revolution in mathematics in the 20th century was the realization that to answer the question:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;What are the properties of this collection of objects?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>considerable value could be got by answering instead this question:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;What transformations of the objects in the collection leave them unchanged?  &#8220;</i></p>
<p>The second question, unlike the first, is essentially a categorical one.</p>
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