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	<title>Comments on: Tsirelson space</title>
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		<title>By: Doormat</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doormat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm: it appears that my understanding of the Tsirelson space is actually its dual.  I learnt about these things from the following book: &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0824787234&amp;id=S14-Kut97MEC&amp;pg=PP1&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;ots=IoIxt2i_N6&amp;dq=classical+sequences&amp;sig=BX9l5LD9Cgw5mH67jI6fhDnRQkA#PRA1-PA63,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Google Print page&lt;/a&gt; called &quot;Classical Sequences in Banach Spaces&quot; (or &quot;Spates&quot; as Google Print calls it, in case you need to the search again).  Do a search for &quot;Tsirelson&quot; in the book, and you&#039;ll find on pages 63 and 64 (which are both accessible from the search, but not from browsing: you know how Google Print works) the inductive construction of a norm I was talking about.  This seems easier to understand to me, but technically it doesn&#039;t give you Tsirelsonâ€™s original space, but the dual (which has the same properties of course).  I might edit the Wiki page if I get bored with my own research this afternoon...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm: it appears that my understanding of the Tsirelson space is actually its dual.  I learnt about these things from the following book: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0824787234&amp;id=S14-Kut97MEC&amp;pg=PP1&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;ots=IoIxt2i_N6&amp;dq=classical+sequences&amp;sig=BX9l5LD9Cgw5mH67jI6fhDnRQkA#PRA1-PA63,M1" rel="nofollow">Google Print page</a> called &#8220;Classical Sequences in Banach Spaces&#8221; (or &#8220;Spates&#8221; as Google Print calls it, in case you need to the search again).  Do a search for &#8220;Tsirelson&#8221; in the book, and you&#8217;ll find on pages 63 and 64 (which are both accessible from the search, but not from browsing: you know how Google Print works) the inductive construction of a norm I was talking about.  This seems easier to understand to me, but technically it doesn&#8217;t give you Tsirelsonâ€™s original space, but the dual (which has the same properties of course).  I might edit the Wiki page if I get bored with my own research this afternoon&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2722</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Harald Hanche-Olsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heck, I went and edited the wikipedia page. It could still need more work, but I don&#039;t think I am particularly qualified. But this one I felt I could do. And while I was at it, I created a page for uniformly convex spaces.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heck, I went and edited the wikipedia page. It could still need more work, but I don&#8217;t think I am particularly qualified. But this one I felt I could do. And while I was at it, I created a page for uniformly convex spaces.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2697</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Harald Hanche-Olsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found Tsirelson&#039;s 1974 paper. It&#039;s doi:10.1007/BF01078599 (on Springerlink) for those at an institution with a valid subscription (a green document icon should show if you have full access).

Tsirelson employs the same mystical m without explanation, but it is clear that it must be a sequence space. Further, from Lemma 2 in the paper it becomes obvious that m should be c_0. What the Wikiepedia article calls block-disjoint is called â€œnot containing inversesâ€ in Tsirelson&#039;s paper, except that he expressly allows the final vector to have infinitely many nonzero elements. In the resulting space, the sequence {e_j} is an absolute basis, and the dual sequence is an absolute basis for the dual. After a superficial reading, the paper looks accessible enough. It&#039;s only three (big) pages plus four references. My biggest reservation when it comes to actually understanding the proof is this reference:

[...] we apply the Kreinâ€“Mil&#039;manâ€“Rutman theorem on stability of minimal systems [4] [...]

[4] M. G. Krein, D. P. Mil&#039;man, and M. A. Rutman, â€œOn a property of a basis in a Banach space,â€, Zapiski Khar&#039;k Matem. Ob-va, 16, 106â€“110 (1940).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found Tsirelson&#8217;s 1974 paper. It&#8217;s doi:10.1007/BF01078599 (on Springerlink) for those at an institution with a valid subscription (a green document icon should show if you have full access).</p>
<p>Tsirelson employs the same mystical m without explanation, but it is clear that it must be a sequence space. Further, from Lemma 2 in the paper it becomes obvious that m should be c_0. What the Wikiepedia article calls block-disjoint is called â€œnot containing inversesâ€ in Tsirelson&#8217;s paper, except that he expressly allows the final vector to have infinitely many nonzero elements. In the resulting space, the sequence {e_j} is an absolute basis, and the dual sequence is an absolute basis for the dual. After a superficial reading, the paper looks accessible enough. It&#8217;s only three (big) pages plus four references. My biggest reservation when it comes to actually understanding the proof is this reference:</p>
<p>[&#8230;] we apply the Kreinâ€“Mil&#8217;manâ€“Rutman theorem on stability of minimal systems [4] [&#8230;]</p>
<p>[4] M. G. Krein, D. P. Mil&#8217;man, and M. A. Rutman, â€œOn a property of a basis in a Banach space,â€, Zapiski Khar&#8217;k Matem. Ob-va, 16, 106â€“110 (1940).</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2664</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t understand the construction in the Wikipedia article either, but I thought that was just a result of my own ignorance.  If the article is actually bad, then let&#039;s fix it!  We can thrash out the details either here or in the discussion page there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t understand the construction in the Wikipedia article either, but I thought that was just a result of my own ignorance.  If the article is actually bad, then let&#8217;s fix it!  We can thrash out the details either here or in the discussion page there.</p>
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		<title>By: Doormat</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doormat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Harald: These spaces are usually constructed by starting with c_{00}, defining a norm on this space, and then completing.  c_{00} is just the vector space of all sequences which are eventually zero.  One could work inside l_\infty if you wanted, but that is a little confusing, as the sup norm is not important.

I agree with property 2 in the wikipedia article makes no sense.  Perhaps m should be A?  Indeed, this is a very weird way to try to define the norm.  Usually the norm of T is defined inductively: one defines a norm \&#124;.\&#124;_1, then uses this to define another norm \&#124;.\&#124;_2, and so forth.  The norm on T is then the limit of \&#124;.\&#124;_n.

Checking out the &quot;talk&quot; section shows that Tsirelson himself has dropped by, and isn&#039;t too happy with the page!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harald: These spaces are usually constructed by starting with c_{00}, defining a norm on this space, and then completing.  c_{00} is just the vector space of all sequences which are eventually zero.  One could work inside l_\infty if you wanted, but that is a little confusing, as the sup norm is not important.</p>
<p>I agree with property 2 in the wikipedia article makes no sense.  Perhaps m should be A?  Indeed, this is a very weird way to try to define the norm.  Usually the norm of T is defined inductively: one defines a norm \|.\|_1, then uses this to define another norm \|.\|_2, and so forth.  The norm on T is then the limit of \|.\|_n.</p>
<p>Checking out the &#8220;talk&#8221; section shows that Tsirelson himself has dropped by, and isn&#8217;t too happy with the page!</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2626</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Harald Hanche-Olsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just following up on my previous comment: Unicode OK, HTML tags stripped.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just following up on my previous comment: Unicode OK, HTML tags stripped.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Harald Hanche-Olsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/01/25/tsirelson-space/#comment-2625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t understand the definition on that wikepedia page. Clearly, the space is constructed as a subset of some sequence space. But which one? Lâˆž perhaps? Also, property 2 in the definition references a set m which is nowhere defined.

(I don&#039;t know if this site handles HTML and Unicode in comments, and there is no preview facility. So I&#039;ll take my chances. My apologies if an unreadable comment results.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand the definition on that wikepedia page. Clearly, the space is constructed as a subset of some sequence space. But which one? Lâˆž perhaps? Also, property 2 in the definition references a set m which is nowhere defined.</p>
<p>(I don&#8217;t know if this site handles HTML and Unicode in comments, and there is no preview facility. So I&#8217;ll take my chances. My apologies if an unreadable comment results.)</p>
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