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	<title>Comments on: Is Math Getting Too Hard?</title>
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	<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Robbie</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-255</guid>
		<description>PeterMcB: I was vaguely aware of formal verification in computer
science.  However, until now, I never thought it would be useful for
any programs I'd be interested in and so I never paid much attention
to it.  (I always imagined it as something for control systems on machines that can't afford to fail).

sigfpe: Not trusting the compiler seems reasonable.  But, where does
it stop?  Do you trust the microcode in the processor?  (I remember
about 10-15 years ago the pentium processors had a bug in floating
point arithmetic).  Do we need formal verification of everything from
the source code down to the logic gates (i.e. the compiler and
microcode)?  Then, what about the logic gates?  We know they work from
theoretical and experimental physics and decades of processors doing
what we expect them to.  But we cant verify mathematically that they
work.

I'm sure the questions have already been tackled by mathematicians and computer scientists.  I'm curious what the answers are.

(Sorry for the late reply; I've been traveling).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PeterMcB: I was vaguely aware of formal verification in computer<br />
science.  However, until now, I never thought it would be useful for<br />
any programs I&#8217;d be interested in and so I never paid much attention<br />
to it.  (I always imagined it as something for control systems on machines that can&#8217;t afford to fail).</p>
<p>sigfpe: Not trusting the compiler seems reasonable.  But, where does<br />
it stop?  Do you trust the microcode in the processor?  (I remember<br />
about 10-15 years ago the pentium processors had a bug in floating<br />
point arithmetic).  Do we need formal verification of everything from<br />
the source code down to the logic gates (i.e. the compiler and<br />
microcode)?  Then, what about the logic gates?  We know they work from<br />
theoretical and experimental physics and decades of processors doing<br />
what we expect them to.  But we cant verify mathematically that they<br />
work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure the questions have already been tackled by mathematicians and computer scientists.  I&#8217;m curious what the answers are.</p>
<p>(Sorry for the late reply; I&#8217;ve been traveling).</p>
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		<title>By: KorayC</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>KorayC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-243</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I need to say “this absolutely definitely works”.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I'd rephrase that as I'd like to say this absolutely works. If there's a finite number of proofs we can fit in one page, at one point we're guaranteed to spill into the second page. I'd like to hope that I'll never reach my personal limits in my lifetime, but that ought to be less and more less likely with every generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I need to say “this absolutely definitely works”.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d rephrase that as I&#8217;d like to say this absolutely works. If there&#8217;s a finite number of proofs we can fit in one page, at one point we&#8217;re guaranteed to spill into the second page. I&#8217;d like to hope that I&#8217;ll never reach my personal limits in my lifetime, but that ought to be less and more less likely with every generation.</p>
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		<title>By: kovasb</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>kovasb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 00:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-240</guid>
		<description>I must admit that this handwringing doesn't make a whole of of sense to me. 

After all, the idea of a true but unprovable statement is not exactly new -- even if people are still in denial about it. And that is a much more devasting thing than the "true but only provable by messy proof" situation of the 4 color theorem and things like it. What is the logical requirement that the truth be neat and  human-understandible?

Now, intuition is of course a good thing. One point being missed by Strogatz is that a major purpose "Wolframian" experiments is exactly to build intuition by exploring the space of what is possible, instead of sticking to the easy ones.  And by exploring the larger space, you get a sense of where known knowledge fits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must admit that this handwringing doesn&#8217;t make a whole of of sense to me. </p>
<p>After all, the idea of a true but unprovable statement is not exactly new &#8212; even if people are still in denial about it. And that is a much more devasting thing than the &#8220;true but only provable by messy proof&#8221; situation of the 4 color theorem and things like it. What is the logical requirement that the truth be neat and  human-understandible?</p>
<p>Now, intuition is of course a good thing. One point being missed by Strogatz is that a major purpose &#8220;Wolframian&#8221; experiments is exactly to build intuition by exploring the space of what is possible, instead of sticking to the easy ones.  And by exploring the larger space, you get a sense of where known knowledge fits.</p>
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		<title>By: sigfpe</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>sigfpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2006 00:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-239</guid>
		<description>You have to trust the compiler

Actually I think it's different. I don't trust the compiler (and this isn't just abstract theoretical doubt, it's based on actual experience). Binary executables &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; need to be checked. This checking takes the form of testing and using the principle of philosophical induction: once I've tested it enough, I'll decide code is good enough to release. But I'll never say "this absolutely definitely works". In mathematics I need to say "this absolutely definitely works".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to trust the compiler</p>
<p>Actually I think it&#8217;s different. I don&#8217;t trust the compiler (and this isn&#8217;t just abstract theoretical doubt, it&#8217;s based on actual experience). Binary executables <em>do</em> need to be checked. This checking takes the form of testing and using the principle of philosophical induction: once I&#8217;ve tested it enough, I&#8217;ll decide code is good enough to release. But I&#8217;ll never say &#8220;this absolutely definitely works&#8221;. In mathematics I need to say &#8220;this absolutely definitely works&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: KorayC</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>KorayC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-238</guid>
		<description>It depends on your level of paranoia. If a very useful theorem was proved only by a computer because it would take years for a human to verify the proof, then you can formulate truckloads of maths (possibly creating other computer-only proofs).
What if one day you reach some insane conclusions and realize that you have to check every one of these robot-proofs?
The situation is very similar to compiling programs. You have to trust the compiler, or else you can't do any business. If every native binary executable had to be checked by a human compiler writer, I wouldn't be able to post this message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on your level of paranoia. If a very useful theorem was proved only by a computer because it would take years for a human to verify the proof, then you can formulate truckloads of maths (possibly creating other computer-only proofs).<br />
What if one day you reach some insane conclusions and realize that you have to check every one of these robot-proofs?<br />
The situation is very similar to compiling programs. You have to trust the compiler, or else you can&#8217;t do any business. If every native binary executable had to be checked by a human compiler writer, I wouldn&#8217;t be able to post this message.</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I second sigfpe's opinion, and take it one further -  all through grad school I was able to show things we true with absolutly no understanding of why :)

Kidding aside, this "problem" has been around since the Hilbert basis theorem and I worry about it not one bit. Even if you look at a computer proof as an oracle, it isn't as if you only get one question. As Robbie said, knowledge accretes around a fact, and eventually comprehension dawns. I feel that the people who worry about this have never actually done any mathematical reseach and felt the process happen in their head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second sigfpe&#8217;s opinion, and take it one further -  all through grad school I was able to show things we true with absolutly no understanding of why <img src='http://www.arsmathematica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Kidding aside, this &#8220;problem&#8221; has been around since the Hilbert basis theorem and I worry about it not one bit. Even if you look at a computer proof as an oracle, it isn&#8217;t as if you only get one question. As Robbie said, knowledge accretes around a fact, and eventually comprehension dawns. I feel that the people who worry about this have never actually done any mathematical reseach and felt the process happen in their head.</p>
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		<title>By: sigfpe</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>sigfpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-236</guid>
		<description>the use of computer programs in mathematical proofs leaves mathematicians with the ability to show something is true without understanding why.

I was always under the impression that people still don't really understand why the Monstrous Moonshine conjectures are true despite Borcherds's proof. His proof works but it doesn't seem to satisfy people's intutions. So I think think there's nothing really new about proof without understanding. In fact, ever since mathematicians first figured out how to do algebraic manipulation there have been proofs without understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the use of computer programs in mathematical proofs leaves mathematicians with the ability to show something is true without understanding why.</p>
<p>I was always under the impression that people still don&#8217;t really understand why the Monstrous Moonshine conjectures are true despite Borcherds&#8217;s proof. His proof works but it doesn&#8217;t seem to satisfy people&#8217;s intutions. So I think think there&#8217;s nothing really new about proof without understanding. In fact, ever since mathematicians first figured out how to do algebraic manipulation there have been proofs without understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: PeterMcB</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/01/05/is-math-getting-too-hard/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>PeterMcB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=197#comment-235</guid>
		<description>In case anyone reading this is interested, there's now a whole branch of computer science which studies formal verification of computer programs and program specifications, including methods for the automation of verification.  Much of this work uses formal logic, which is one reason why modal, temporal, epistemic, deontic, etc, logics now play such a large role in CS.  

A fascinating, and easy-to-read, account of the conflicts between mathematicians and computer scientists in the development of formal verification can be found in this book by Donald MacKenzie (a sociologist of technology at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland):  "Mechanizing Proof: Computing, Risk, and Trust" (MIT Press, 2004).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case anyone reading this is interested, there&#8217;s now a whole branch of computer science which studies formal verification of computer programs and program specifications, including methods for the automation of verification.  Much of this work uses formal logic, which is one reason why modal, temporal, epistemic, deontic, etc, logics now play such a large role in CS.  </p>
<p>A fascinating, and easy-to-read, account of the conflicts between mathematicians and computer scientists in the development of formal verification can be found in this book by Donald MacKenzie (a sociologist of technology at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland):  &#8220;Mechanizing Proof: Computing, Risk, and Trust&#8221; (MIT Press, 2004).</p>
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