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	<title>Comments on: Physics Versus Mathematics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/</link>
	<description>Dedicated to the mathematical arts.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-60646</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-60646</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion!

I, too, used to believe that consistency is the most important, at least w.r.t. empirical truths.  However, forcing every theory and thought to be perfectly consistent is so crippling, that the progress of useful empirical truths is overly hindered.

It reminds me of the travelling salesman problem, which, although N-P complete, can usefully be solved by Monte Carlo in polynomial time.  It is only for a tiny fraction of the problem space that you really have to compute for exponential time.  It's somewhat analogous to using 'sloppy' math, perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion!</p>
<p>I, too, used to believe that consistency is the most important, at least w.r.t. empirical truths.  However, forcing every theory and thought to be perfectly consistent is so crippling, that the progress of useful empirical truths is overly hindered.</p>
<p>It reminds me of the travelling salesman problem, which, although N-P complete, can usefully be solved by Monte Carlo in polynomial time.  It is only for a tiny fraction of the problem space that you really have to compute for exponential time.  It&#8217;s somewhat analogous to using &#8217;sloppy&#8217; math, perhaps?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Freeze</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-58694</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Freeze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-58694</guid>
		<description>John Baez' quote from Feynman, "to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in," reminds me of a story...

Two confused philosophy students get married and try to decipher the meaning of life from the voice of nature &lt;em&gt;at its loudest&lt;/em&gt; during their honeymoon at Niagra Falls.

Far upstream, a little transistor radio has fallen into the river, and the newlyweds hear it playing the incomprehensible hit "Louie Louie" as it goes over the falls.

Life obviously has no meaning, and the newlyweds throw themselves off the catwalk onto the rocks below.

&lt;b&gt;Moral:&lt;/b&gt; Nature speaks a zillion languages, and whatever we hear of them is the outcome of a long series of biological accidents, like a typical honeymoon at Niagra Falls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Baez&#8217; quote from Feynman, &#8220;to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in,&#8221; reminds me of a story&#8230;</p>
<p>Two confused philosophy students get married and try to decipher the meaning of life from the voice of nature <em>at its loudest</em> during their honeymoon at Niagra Falls.</p>
<p>Far upstream, a little transistor radio has fallen into the river, and the newlyweds hear it playing the incomprehensible hit &#8220;Louie Louie&#8221; as it goes over the falls.</p>
<p>Life obviously has no meaning, and the newlyweds throw themselves off the catwalk onto the rocks below.</p>
<p><b>Moral:</b> Nature speaks a zillion languages, and whatever we hear of them is the outcome of a long series of biological accidents, like a typical honeymoon at Niagra Falls.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Vos Post</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-55646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Vos Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-55646</guid>
		<description>I don't feel compelled to defend my mentor and coauthor Richard Feynman against silly ad hominem attacks. His legacy is defense enough.

More interesting is Max Tegmark's contention that the Physicists' holy grail of a Theory of Everything forces us to believe that we live inside a mathematical structure, and that it is part of a mathematical multiverse of mathematical structures.

&lt;a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/0709.4024" rel="nofollow"&gt;Shut up and calculate&lt;/a&gt;,
1 Oct 2007.
    Comments: This is the "director's cut" version of the September 15 2007 New Scientist cover story. For references, see the "full strength" version at arXiv:0704.0646
    Subjects: Popular Physics (physics.pop-ph); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); Mathematical Physics (math-ph)

    I advocate an extreme "shut-up-and-calculate" approach to physics, where our external physical reality is assumed to be purely mathematical. This brief essay motivates this "it's all just equations" assumption and discusses its implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t feel compelled to defend my mentor and coauthor Richard Feynman against silly ad hominem attacks. His legacy is defense enough.</p>
<p>More interesting is Max Tegmark&#8217;s contention that the Physicists&#8217; holy grail of a Theory of Everything forces us to believe that we live inside a mathematical structure, and that it is part of a mathematical multiverse of mathematical structures.</p>
<p><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/0709.4024" rel="nofollow">Shut up and calculate</a>,<br />
1 Oct 2007.<br />
    Comments: This is the &#8220;director&#8217;s cut&#8221; version of the September 15 2007 New Scientist cover story. For references, see the &#8220;full strength&#8221; version at arXiv:0704.0646<br />
    Subjects: Popular Physics (physics.pop-ph); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); Mathematical Physics (math-ph)</p>
<p>    I advocate an extreme &#8220;shut-up-and-calculate&#8221; approach to physics, where our external physical reality is assumed to be purely mathematical. This brief essay motivates this &#8220;it&#8217;s all just equations&#8221; assumption and discusses its implications.</p>
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		<title>By: mathematician</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-55624</link>
		<dc:creator>mathematician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-55624</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I believe that without math, Dr. Feymann would have plenty of "space-time" for masturbation. This is because few people will ever consider his physical theories seriously. What is physics if one doesn't explain it in terms of mathematics ? It just like telling a story. I'd call it interesting philosophy with an orientation reversing twist.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that without math, Dr. Feymann would have plenty of &#8220;space-time&#8221; for masturbation. This is because few people will ever consider his physical theories seriously. What is physics if one doesn&#8217;t explain it in terms of mathematics ? It just like telling a story. I&#8217;d call it interesting philosophy with an orientation reversing twist.</p>
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		<title>By: victorpesta</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-43248</link>
		<dc:creator>victorpesta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 04:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-43248</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with what "hmm Says" that so many physicists have this arrogant attitude towards mathematics.  I once had a physics professor who said that mathematics is a mindless tool.  Can you believe that???!!!. Physicists should try doing physics (experimental and theoretical) without using any mathematics and see how far they get.  They drink from the trough of mathematics; they appropriate mathematics for themselves in order to make mathematicians look like idiots. Mathematics is far superior to physics, you high and mighty, arrrogant, bigotted , narrow-minded SOB physicists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with what &#8220;hmm Says&#8221; that so many physicists have this arrogant attitude towards mathematics.  I once had a physics professor who said that mathematics is a mindless tool.  Can you believe that???!!!. Physicists should try doing physics (experimental and theoretical) without using any mathematics and see how far they get.  They drink from the trough of mathematics; they appropriate mathematics for themselves in order to make mathematicians look like idiots. Mathematics is far superior to physics, you high and mighty, arrrogant, bigotted , narrow-minded SOB physicists.</p>
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		<title>By: sigfpe</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator>sigfpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1435</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
QFT isn’t inconsistent, just it is not known yet if it is consistent
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
When physicists reason they often do so using techniques that aren't generally valid. They may work in one particular situation but not in another, without a good explanation as to why. For example, in the absence of proper foundations to QFT, physicists use heuristic arguments about limits and infinities that really are not valid mathematics. I guess you could view this not as an inconsistent theory, but as a theory with a very complicated set of deduction rules about when you can use this and that rule. So complicated, in fact, that the rules haven't been codified and you have to learn them by reading between the lines of your lecture notes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
QFT isn’t inconsistent, just it is not known yet if it is consistent
</p></blockquote>
<p>When physicists reason they often do so using techniques that aren&#8217;t generally valid. They may work in one particular situation but not in another, without a good explanation as to why. For example, in the absence of proper foundations to QFT, physicists use heuristic arguments about limits and infinities that really are not valid mathematics. I guess you could view this not as an inconsistent theory, but as a theory with a very complicated set of deduction rules about when you can use this and that rule. So complicated, in fact, that the rules haven&#8217;t been codified and you have to learn them by reading between the lines of your lecture notes.</p>
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		<title>By: hmm</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>hmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
This is quite different from mathematics where the moment you smell a whiff of inconsistency somewhere it’s imperative that you rush towards it as fast as you can.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not always, and not everybody. I for example have no problems with (some level of) sloppyness and heuristic arguments, as long as at least the objects in question are more-or-less clearly defined. The problem is, when you talk with physicists, or read physics books, they are often not...

(btw, I don't think "inconsistent" is the good word here. QFT isn't inconsistent, just it is not known yet if it is consistent)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
This is quite different from mathematics where the moment you smell a whiff of inconsistency somewhere it’s imperative that you rush towards it as fast as you can.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Not always, and not everybody. I for example have no problems with (some level of) sloppyness and heuristic arguments, as long as at least the objects in question are more-or-less clearly defined. The problem is, when you talk with physicists, or read physics books, they are often not&#8230;</p>
<p>(btw, I don&#8217;t think &#8220;inconsistent&#8221; is the good word here. QFT isn&#8217;t inconsistent, just it is not known yet if it is consistent)</p>
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		<title>By: bcarson</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>bcarson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>As Alvy Singer said in Annie Hall,

"Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with somebody I love."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Alvy Singer said in Annie Hall,</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t knock masturbation. It&#8217;s sex with somebody I love.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: DrBlackward</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1432</link>
		<dc:creator>DrBlackward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1432</guid>
		<description>if we reverse the order of words in the 2nd comparison we can conclude as always that physics is merely another expression of math as masturbation is but another expression of sex.  As always the sciences have their own "jargons" but the primary tool for investigative dialog remains mathematics</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if we reverse the order of words in the 2nd comparison we can conclude as always that physics is merely another expression of math as masturbation is but another expression of sex.  As always the sciences have their own &#8220;jargons&#8221; but the primary tool for investigative dialog remains mathematics</p>
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		<title>By: BUCKMINSTER</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>BUCKMINSTER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2006/09/20/physics-versus-mathematics/#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>PHYSICS IS NOTHING BUT A COMPENDIUM OF RANDON, NON-RELATED OBSERVATIONS AND PROPORTED CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT MATHEMATICS TO GIVE IT COGENCY AND REAL LIFE!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PHYSICS IS NOTHING BUT A COMPENDIUM OF RANDON, NON-RELATED OBSERVATIONS AND PROPORTED CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT MATHEMATICS TO GIVE IT COGENCY AND REAL LIFE!!</p>
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