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	<title>Comments on: Totally-Ordered Nets</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: hans</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54520</link>
		<dc:creator>hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54520</guid>
		<description>[excuse my stupid use of &#60; in HTML]

As Harald's example shows, a directed set need not contain a cofinal subset indexed by a chain. However, every directed set contains a monotonically cofinal subset indexed by a tower.

A tower is a poset (T,&#8804;) that is isomorphic (as a poset) to
the set of all finite subsets of some suitable set (ordered by inclusion).

Given any directed (X,&#8804;), the set T of all finite subsets of X itself 
is surely a tower. Now let's create a cofinal subset {x_t &#124; t in T} in X
that is even _monotonically_ cofinal, that is,

[M]  for s a (strict) subset of t, x_t &#8805; x_s in X.

This can be done by induction on the size of t: for &#124;t&#124; = 1, that is,
t = {x} for some x in X, take x_t = {x}. This satisfies [M].
Once you have x_t for all &#124;t&#124; = n, define x_t for &#124;t&#124; = n + 1 as follows:
consider all (strict) subsets s of t, and the (monotonically) corresponding
x_s. Then take x_t in to be greater than all of these x_s (which can be done,
because X is directed). In this fashion, you create the {x_t &#124; t in T}.

This satisfies [M] by definition. Also, it is surely cofinal.

This appears as an exercise in Birkhoff's Lattice Theory
(crediting M. Krasner)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[excuse my stupid use of &lt; in HTML]</p>
<p>As Harald&#8217;s example shows, a directed set need not contain a cofinal subset indexed by a chain. However, every directed set contains a monotonically cofinal subset indexed by a tower.</p>
<p>A tower is a poset (T,&le;) that is isomorphic (as a poset) to<br />
the set of all finite subsets of some suitable set (ordered by inclusion).</p>
<p>Given any directed (X,&le;), the set T of all finite subsets of X itself<br />
is surely a tower. Now let&#8217;s create a cofinal subset {x_t | t in T} in X<br />
that is even _monotonically_ cofinal, that is,</p>
<p>[M]  for s a (strict) subset of t, x_t &ge; x_s in X.</p>
<p>This can be done by induction on the size of t: for |t| = 1, that is,<br />
t = {x} for some x in X, take x_t = {x}. This satisfies [M].<br />
Once you have x_t for all |t| = n, define x_t for |t| = n + 1 as follows:<br />
consider all (strict) subsets s of t, and the (monotonically) corresponding<br />
x_s. Then take x_t in to be greater than all of these x_s (which can be done,<br />
because X is directed). In this fashion, you create the {x_t | t in T}.</p>
<p>This satisfies [M] by definition. Also, it is surely cofinal.</p>
<p>This appears as an exercise in Birkhoff&#8217;s Lattice Theory<br />
(crediting M. Krasner)</p>
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		<title>By: hans</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54519</link>
		<dc:creator>hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54519</guid>
		<description>As Harald's example shows, a directed set need not contain a cofinal subset indexed by a chain. However, every directed set contains a monotonically cofinal subset indexed by a tower.

A tower is a poset (T,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Harald&#8217;s example shows, a directed set need not contain a cofinal subset indexed by a chain. However, every directed set contains a monotonically cofinal subset indexed by a tower.</p>
<p>A tower is a poset (T,</p>
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		<title>By: hellblazer</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54416</link>
		<dc:creator>hellblazer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54416</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Off the top of my head (so quite probably wrong): why not take the Stone-Cech compactification of a countable discrete set (say the natural numbers N for sake of definiteness)?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My *guess* is that there must be ultrafilters on N which are not limit points of sequences of principal ultrafilters -- tho' I haven't thought about this properly.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off the top of my head (so quite probably wrong): why not take the Stone-Cech compactification of a countable discrete set (say the natural numbers N for sake of definiteness)?</p>
<p>My *guess* is that there must be ultrafilters on N which are not limit points of sequences of principal ultrafilters &#8212; tho&#8217; I haven&#8217;t thought about this properly.</p>
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		<title>By: hans</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54413</link>
		<dc:creator>hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54413</guid>
		<description>In omega_1 with cofinite topology, the integers converge to omega. So in the example for "sequences are not enough", you mean an uncountable set with cocountable topology, right? Then you can isolate the would-be limit from all members of the sequence. Then the space doesn't have non-trivial convergent sequences; but every uncoubtable set is dense.

(My favourite example for this is [0,omega_1] in the usual order topology, where you can see right away  that omega_1
is in the closure, yet no sequence can converge to it.)

As for our question: not only are transfinite sequences (indexed by ordinals) not sufficient - even if you allow the
sequence to be indexed by any linear order, it is not sufficient. The same example (Tychonoff plank) works, with
the proof trivially modified as follows.

The point p = (omega1, omega) of the Tychonoff plank is in the closure of the open set U = omega1 x omega. Let's suppose that some sequence (a_x, n_x) of points from U, indexed by members x in L of some linear order L, converges to p. Surely L needs to be uncountable; in fact, the cofinality of L must be uncountable.

L decomposes into countably many sets L_n = {x &#124; n_x = n }. One of these sets must be unbounded in L: if not,
take s_n to be an upper bound for L_n in L. Then {s_n &#124; n in omega } is a countable set cofinal in L.

So take the unbounded L_n. The sequence of a_x for x in L_n surely converges to omega1. So the sequence
whose members are the (a_x, n_x) = (a_x, n) for x in L_n, which is a subsequence of the original sequence,
converges to (w1, n). Contradiction.

The only place where we changed the original proof (that no transfinite ordinal sequence in U can converge
to p) is that we are taking upper bounds of L_n in the linear order L, instead of suprema in the ordinal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In omega_1 with cofinite topology, the integers converge to omega. So in the example for &#8220;sequences are not enough&#8221;, you mean an uncountable set with cocountable topology, right? Then you can isolate the would-be limit from all members of the sequence. Then the space doesn&#8217;t have non-trivial convergent sequences; but every uncoubtable set is dense.</p>
<p>(My favourite example for this is [0,omega_1] in the usual order topology, where you can see right away  that omega_1<br />
is in the closure, yet no sequence can converge to it.)</p>
<p>As for our question: not only are transfinite sequences (indexed by ordinals) not sufficient - even if you allow the<br />
sequence to be indexed by any linear order, it is not sufficient. The same example (Tychonoff plank) works, with<br />
the proof trivially modified as follows.</p>
<p>The point p = (omega1, omega) of the Tychonoff plank is in the closure of the open set U = omega1 x omega. Let&#8217;s suppose that some sequence (a_x, n_x) of points from U, indexed by members x in L of some linear order L, converges to p. Surely L needs to be uncountable; in fact, the cofinality of L must be uncountable.</p>
<p>L decomposes into countably many sets L_n = {x | n_x = n }. One of these sets must be unbounded in L: if not,<br />
take s_n to be an upper bound for L_n in L. Then {s_n | n in omega } is a countable set cofinal in L.</p>
<p>So take the unbounded L_n. The sequence of a_x for x in L_n surely converges to omega1. So the sequence<br />
whose members are the (a_x, n_x) = (a_x, n) for x in L_n, which is a subsequence of the original sequence,<br />
converges to (w1, n). Contradiction.</p>
<p>The only place where we changed the original proof (that no transfinite ordinal sequence in U can converge<br />
to p) is that we are taking upper bounds of L_n in the linear order L, instead of suprema in the ordinal.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54412</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Hanche-Olsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54412</guid>
		<description>Oh, wait a minute. The Tychonov plank might be a good example after all. Consider the directed set ω×ω1 with the ordering in which (a,b)&#60;(c,d) iff a&#60;c and b&#60;d: Any chain must be countable, so there is a definite upper limit on the second component of the members of the chain. In other words, it doesn't “reach the top”. So this settles my question in the negative, but does it settle yours?

I think so, for if you consider any net with a totally ordered index set, then you can find an equivalent net indexed with ordinals. Just wellorder the index set, and inductively keep or throw out members, keeping just those who are greater (in the original ordering) than any element previously kept. The result is a well-ordered subset of the original index set, which reaches “all the way up” in the original.  Right?

Uh, no preview on your blog. I'll just have to toss this in and see if my HTML formatting is accepted or what.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, wait a minute. The Tychonov plank might be a good example after all. Consider the directed set ω×ω1 with the ordering in which (a,b)&lt;(c,d) iff a&lt;c and b&lt;d: Any chain must be countable, so there is a definite upper limit on the second component of the members of the chain. In other words, it doesn&#8217;t “reach the top”. So this settles my question in the negative, but does it settle yours?</p>
<p>I think so, for if you consider any net with a totally ordered index set, then you can find an equivalent net indexed with ordinals. Just wellorder the index set, and inductively keep or throw out members, keeping just those who are greater (in the original ordering) than any element previously kept. The result is a well-ordered subset of the original index set, which reaches “all the way up” in the original.  Right?</p>
<p>Uh, no preview on your blog. I&#8217;ll just have to toss this in and see if my HTML formatting is accepted or what.</p>
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		<title>By: John C. Baez</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54411</link>
		<dc:creator>John C. Baez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54411</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I remember wondering about this too, when I first encountered nets.  I thought about it a lot... but that was decades ago, and I forget the upshot.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Right now I'm thinking there &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; be spaces where non-totally-ordered nets are necessary to fully describe the topology.  Following Harald Hanche-Olsen's lead, I think we should try to construct a directed &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_set" rel="nofollow"&gt;directed set&lt;/a&gt; in which no &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_order" rel="nofollow"&gt;chain&lt;/a&gt; is &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofinal_%28mathematics%29" rel="nofollow"&gt;cofinal&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perhaps the Tychonoff Plank will do the job.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember wondering about this too, when I first encountered nets.  I thought about it a lot&#8230; but that was decades ago, and I forget the upshot.</p>
<p>Right now I&#8217;m thinking there <i>should</i> be spaces where non-totally-ordered nets are necessary to fully describe the topology.  Following Harald Hanche-Olsen&#8217;s lead, I think we should try to construct a directed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_set" rel="nofollow">directed set</a> in which no <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_order" rel="nofollow">chain</a> is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofinal_%28mathematics%29" rel="nofollow">cofinal</a>.</p>
<p>Perhaps the Tychonoff Plank will do the job.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Hanche-Olsen</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54409</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Hanche-Olsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/08/03/totally-ordered-nets/#comment-54409</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I wonder. Given any net, consider its restriction to a maximal chain (totally ordered set) within the index set. Your question seems to boil down to the question of whether a such a maximal chain “reaches the end” of the index set (or can be chosen to do so). In other words, given an element of the net's index set, is there an element of the chain that is at least as large? I haven't thought through the details, but I guess the answer to this question will settle your question either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I wonder. Given any net, consider its restriction to a maximal chain (totally ordered set) within the index set. Your question seems to boil down to the question of whether a such a maximal chain “reaches the end” of the index set (or can be chosen to do so). In other words, given an element of the net&#8217;s index set, is there an element of the chain that is at least as large? I haven&#8217;t thought through the details, but I guess the answer to this question will settle your question either way.</p>
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