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	<title>Comments on: Joys of Pedagogy</title>
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	<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ars Mathematica &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Joys of Pedagogy II</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56378</link>
		<dc:creator>Ars Mathematica &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Joys of Pedagogy II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 05:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56378</guid>
		<description>[...] This comment by klein4g helped me clarify for myself exactly what my objection to the examples then definition style of teaching. It&#8217;s that the author or speaker is pretending that we&#8217;re collectively coming up with the common definition as an act of creativity, when in reality there&#8217;s a right answer and the author knows it. It&#8217;s the pretense that annoys me. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This comment by klein4g helped me clarify for myself exactly what my objection to the examples then definition style of teaching. It&#8217;s that the author or speaker is pretending that we&#8217;re collectively coming up with the common definition as an act of creativity, when in reality there&#8217;s a right answer and the author knows it. It&#8217;s the pretense that annoys me. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: klein4g</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56364</link>
		<dc:creator>klein4g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56364</guid>
		<description>Well....but doing mathematics will ultimately involve defining things by yourself. In fact (if i recall an interview of Borel's) one of Grothendieck's greatest skills was to be able to come up with insightful definitions. So, as a pedagogical device i think starting with examples is a much better idea because as you carefully peruse examples a part of you is already scanning for possible patterns in them that may be used for a definition or a result. 

For example: Say an interested undergrad has just learnt examples of cyclic groups (before the definition). It is reasonable to believe after a bit of fiddling around with n-tuples of elements from the groups he/she will soon be able to land up with an idea of a direct product. And a bit more fiddling around will lead he/she to the result that the direct product is cyclic if the orders of the constituting cycling groups are co-prime, etc. 

In sum, IMO a few good examples takes one closer to the math than many a definitions. Moreover, prospective mathematicians shouldn't get too used to having definitions and theorems served up on a platter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230;.but doing mathematics will ultimately involve defining things by yourself. In fact (if i recall an interview of Borel&#8217;s) one of Grothendieck&#8217;s greatest skills was to be able to come up with insightful definitions. So, as a pedagogical device i think starting with examples is a much better idea because as you carefully peruse examples a part of you is already scanning for possible patterns in them that may be used for a definition or a result. </p>
<p>For example: Say an interested undergrad has just learnt examples of cyclic groups (before the definition). It is reasonable to believe after a bit of fiddling around with n-tuples of elements from the groups he/she will soon be able to land up with an idea of a direct product. And a bit more fiddling around will lead he/she to the result that the direct product is cyclic if the orders of the constituting cycling groups are co-prime, etc. </p>
<p>In sum, IMO a few good examples takes one closer to the math than many a definitions. Moreover, prospective mathematicians shouldn&#8217;t get too used to having definitions and theorems served up on a platter.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56360</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56360</guid>
		<description>Is the previous comment spam?  I really can't tell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the previous comment spam?  I really can&#8217;t tell.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56355</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 05:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56355</guid>
		<description>LOl - the thought of trying to run over a set of examples without defining the conceptual argument might work for higher education ( I think I hated those classes and teachers) but to think elementary students wouldnt turn into smarty pants without a broadened set of mathematical theories, processing, expectations, and possible examples seems naive. Why  look for an adversarial role in this stream, arent people adversarial in effectiveness anyway?
In Vietnam people often lead the way when going out, they effectively 'street prowl'. Just being a tourist in mayhem countries makes you understand why our forefathers liked to declare their purpose. Never getting proper directions is a emotional rollercoaster to me, like backseat drivers that say 'this isnt the way Dad goes'. 
But in contrast to what I'm saying; going out and buying something readymade is a lifesaver that can be totally appreciated by the person who failed to build their own. Similarly attempting to define a process makes seeing a geniuses processing all more wonderful! I call it my 'biting off more than I can chew effect'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOl - the thought of trying to run over a set of examples without defining the conceptual argument might work for higher education ( I think I hated those classes and teachers) but to think elementary students wouldnt turn into smarty pants without a broadened set of mathematical theories, processing, expectations, and possible examples seems naive. Why  look for an adversarial role in this stream, arent people adversarial in effectiveness anyway?<br />
In Vietnam people often lead the way when going out, they effectively &#8217;street prowl&#8217;. Just being a tourist in mayhem countries makes you understand why our forefathers liked to declare their purpose. Never getting proper directions is a emotional rollercoaster to me, like backseat drivers that say &#8216;this isnt the way Dad goes&#8217;.<br />
But in contrast to what I&#8217;m saying; going out and buying something readymade is a lifesaver that can be totally appreciated by the person who failed to build their own. Similarly attempting to define a process makes seeing a geniuses processing all more wonderful! I call it my &#8216;biting off more than I can chew effect&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56350</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 07:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56350</guid>
		<description>Another vote for examples after definitions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another vote for examples after definitions.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56330</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56330</guid>
		<description>n00b, did I talk about anything other than my personal opinion?  You misunderstood me completely.  Completely.  I like examples.  I love examples.  I learn entirely by example.  I like to see the definition first, so that I know what it is that I'm seeing examples &lt;i&gt;of&lt;/i&gt;.  Otherwise, I'm trying to guess what the common feature I'm supposed to be identifying is.

jel, my preferred order is definition, fifty examples, theorems.  

JB, Dedekind domain is a good counterexample.  There's a situation where you'd need to see the examples first.  I thought of another example right after I posted: Lie algebras.  They seem pretty unmotivated if you're not already familiar with the relationship with Lie groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>n00b, did I talk about anything other than my personal opinion?  You misunderstood me completely.  Completely.  I like examples.  I love examples.  I learn entirely by example.  I like to see the definition first, so that I know what it is that I&#8217;m seeing examples <i>of</i>.  Otherwise, I&#8217;m trying to guess what the common feature I&#8217;m supposed to be identifying is.</p>
<p>jel, my preferred order is definition, fifty examples, theorems.  </p>
<p>JB, Dedekind domain is a good counterexample.  There&#8217;s a situation where you&#8217;d need to see the examples first.  I thought of another example right after I posted: Lie algebras.  They seem pretty unmotivated if you&#8217;re not already familiar with the relationship with Lie groups.</p>
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		<title>By: j edward ladenburger</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56298</link>
		<dc:creator>j edward ladenburger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56298</guid>
		<description>There is a pedagogical approach to teaching physics called "modeling" which has been put forth by folks at Arizona State [ http://modeling.asu.edu/] ... one of the key ideas is to expose students to a physical situation -- they then discover relationships between parameters and  -- once this rich context has been established -- the instructor attaches a name -- a definition or "law".  

Definitions and theorems are vital and important  -- an approach which provides examples (context) first can make it easier to remember the definitions/theorems, because associations with a rich, processed, contemplated context are used.  -- The context provides something for students to "hang their hats on".  I have seen students in my classes glaze over and have watched definitions and theorems pass straight through their ears when presented without either detailed and careful explanation or  some rich, relevant context.  

Well - that is just two cents worth...
peace!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a pedagogical approach to teaching physics called &#8220;modeling&#8221; which has been put forth by folks at Arizona State [ <a href="http://modeling.asu.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://modeling.asu.edu/</a> &#8230; one of the key ideas is to expose students to a physical situation &#8212; they then discover relationships between parameters and  &#8212; once this rich context has been established &#8212; the instructor attaches a name &#8212; a definition or &#8220;law&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Definitions and theorems are vital and important  &#8212; an approach which provides examples (context) first can make it easier to remember the definitions/theorems, because associations with a rich, processed, contemplated context are used.  &#8212; The context provides something for students to &#8220;hang their hats on&#8221;.  I have seen students in my classes glaze over and have watched definitions and theorems pass straight through their ears when presented without either detailed and careful explanation or  some rich, relevant context.  </p>
<p>Well - that is just two cents worth&#8230;<br />
peace!</p>
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		<title>By: n00b</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56296</link>
		<dc:creator>n00b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56296</guid>
		<description>Hi,

That's your own learning process and not everyone can understand or learn in that way. Not everyone is the same. I am not sure if you are aware of different learning methods by people. For instance you'll have some people that learn more by pictures, others by reading then you have the ones that enjoy lectures. And as you mention your own where you understand instantly a written definition.

My own experience is that I "learn by example". I am glad that I stumbled with this post and the link to that guy. Learning by example is not leading someone blindly to the end of the road missing everything else. How I see it is giving me the tool to do something and afterwards I can discover/understand the underlying mechanisms.

You don't need a thousand PHd's in Biology, Math, Chemistry, Quantum, Agriculture, etc to understand that an apple is an apple. The path to deeper knowledge can be achieved through different methods.

"being led down a road by someone who already knows the destination, but they won’t tell me where we’re going until we actually get there."

^^^ That conclusion makes absolutely non-sense. Were you born already knowing what you know? Did you go to university already knowing your subject? And yes, unfortunately ALL professors "already know the destination" when they are teaching students.

Besides a HUGE percentage of our learning process after being born is solely "by imitating", i.e. "by example".

Seriously I don't know why learning "by example" should exclude later a deeper understanding or the theorems.

I think your post has been hastily written without a lot of thinking.

have a nice day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s your own learning process and not everyone can understand or learn in that way. Not everyone is the same. I am not sure if you are aware of different learning methods by people. For instance you&#8217;ll have some people that learn more by pictures, others by reading then you have the ones that enjoy lectures. And as you mention your own where you understand instantly a written definition.</p>
<p>My own experience is that I &#8220;learn by example&#8221;. I am glad that I stumbled with this post and the link to that guy. Learning by example is not leading someone blindly to the end of the road missing everything else. How I see it is giving me the tool to do something and afterwards I can discover/understand the underlying mechanisms.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need a thousand PHd&#8217;s in Biology, Math, Chemistry, Quantum, Agriculture, etc to understand that an apple is an apple. The path to deeper knowledge can be achieved through different methods.</p>
<p>&#8220;being led down a road by someone who already knows the destination, but they won’t tell me where we’re going until we actually get there.&#8221;</p>
<p>^^^ That conclusion makes absolutely non-sense. Were you born already knowing what you know? Did you go to university already knowing your subject? And yes, unfortunately ALL professors &#8220;already know the destination&#8221; when they are teaching students.</p>
<p>Besides a HUGE percentage of our learning process after being born is solely &#8220;by imitating&#8221;, i.e. &#8220;by example&#8221;.</p>
<p>Seriously I don&#8217;t know why learning &#8220;by example&#8221; should exclude later a deeper understanding or the theorems.</p>
<p>I think your post has been hastily written without a lot of thinking.</p>
<p>have a nice day.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Daigle</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56273</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Daigle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56273</guid>
		<description>A lot of my profs have lead with examples.  One of them does it especially much; his explanation is that "a lot of math is figuring out which definitions to make and which hypotheses to put in the theorem.  I want to walk you through the process of figuring out why we're going to define this thing the way we are."  He spends a lot of time talking about what properties you need for certain other properties to hold, by way of explaining  why the definition he's about to give is the way it is.  Some people hate this, but I often like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of my profs have lead with examples.  One of them does it especially much; his explanation is that &#8220;a lot of math is figuring out which definitions to make and which hypotheses to put in the theorem.  I want to walk you through the process of figuring out why we&#8217;re going to define this thing the way we are.&#8221;  He spends a lot of time talking about what properties you need for certain other properties to hold, by way of explaining  why the definition he&#8217;s about to give is the way it is.  Some people hate this, but I often like it.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56268</link>
		<dc:creator>John Baez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2007/10/29/joys-of-pedagogy/#comment-56268</guid>
		<description>I think it all depends.  If you don't have much algebraic intuition, just seeing the definition of a &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind_domain" rel="nofollow"&gt;Dedekind domain&lt;/a&gt; could be enough to make you hate them if you hadn't first been told: "Okay, we're gonna define something that has these two examples: polynomials in one variable over a field, and rings of algebraic integers in an algebraic number field".   Sure, the teacher could give the definition first and then quickly rescue you by giving these two examples, but why not say ahead of time what the examples are?  Knowing them ahead of time can make the definition seem exciting, since you know it's unifying two different subjects, and the trick is to see how.

In other situations, where you've already got a good feeling for a subject, just seeing a new definition is enough to cause feelings of pleasure.  "Ah yes!  Why didn't I think of that concept?"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it all depends.  If you don&#8217;t have much algebraic intuition, just seeing the definition of a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind_domain" rel="nofollow">Dedekind domain</a> could be enough to make you hate them if you hadn&#8217;t first been told: &#8220;Okay, we&#8217;re gonna define something that has these two examples: polynomials in one variable over a field, and rings of algebraic integers in an algebraic number field&#8221;.   Sure, the teacher could give the definition first and then quickly rescue you by giving these two examples, but why not say ahead of time what the examples are?  Knowing them ahead of time can make the definition seem exciting, since you know it&#8217;s unifying two different subjects, and the trick is to see how.</p>
<p>In other situations, where you&#8217;ve already got a good feeling for a subject, just seeing a new definition is enough to cause feelings of pleasure.  &#8220;Ah yes!  Why didn&#8217;t I think of that concept?&#8221;</p>
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