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	<title>Comments on: Spam Must Go On.  It Will Go On.</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jacob Freeze</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60196</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Freeze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Walt: Tagore has two strings in his lyre, and in "Where the mind is without fear" he plays for "edification" instead of treacle, and conjures up a world "where words come out from the depth of truth." Who could argue with that? 
 
But in the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers'_suicides_in_India" rel="nofollow"&gt;suicide belt&lt;/a&gt; of India, where dozens of farmers are pauperized by debt and driven into suicidal despair &lt;em&gt;every day&lt;/em&gt;, they aren't really looking for utopian "edification," which the average politician can supply just as glibly as Rabindranath Tagore. 

I'm not really trying to persuade you not to like a poem you like, and anyway William Butler Yeats is on your side, probably with just about the same set of reservations.

But admiration for one complex of qualities usually implies a devaluation of the opposite, and my taste in Indian literature is centered on &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabai" rel="nofollow"&gt;Mirabai&lt;/a&gt; in medieval India,  and the great contemporary Indian novelist and essayist &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arundhati_Roy" rel="nofollow"&gt;Arundhati Roy&lt;/a&gt;, whose commitment to the ordinary lives of ordinary people like farmers in the &lt;em&gt;suicide belt&lt;/em&gt; outweights any amount of grand "edification," for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt: Tagore has two strings in his lyre, and in &#8220;Where the mind is without fear&#8221; he plays for &#8220;edification&#8221; instead of treacle, and conjures up a world &#8220;where words come out from the depth of truth.&#8221; Who could argue with that? </p>
<p>But in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers'_suicides_in_India" rel="nofollow">suicide belt</a> of India, where dozens of farmers are pauperized by debt and driven into suicidal despair <em>every day</em>, they aren&#8217;t really looking for utopian &#8220;edification,&#8221; which the average politician can supply just as glibly as Rabindranath Tagore. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really trying to persuade you not to like a poem you like, and anyway William Butler Yeats is on your side, probably with just about the same set of reservations.</p>
<p>But admiration for one complex of qualities usually implies a devaluation of the opposite, and my taste in Indian literature is centered on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabai" rel="nofollow">Mirabai</a> in medieval India,  and the great contemporary Indian novelist and essayist <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arundhati_Roy" rel="nofollow">Arundhati Roy</a>, whose commitment to the ordinary lives of ordinary people like farmers in the <em>suicide belt</em> outweights any amount of grand &#8220;edification,&#8221; for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60186</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60186</guid>
		<description>I've read some Tagore (in English), and found it about as treacly as everyone else.  I don't know how it reads in Bengali.  I do like &lt;a href="http://www.poetryoutloud.org/poems/poem.html?id=174937" rel="nofollow"&gt;Where the mind is without fear&lt;/a&gt;, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read some Tagore (in English), and found it about as treacly as everyone else.  I don&#8217;t know how it reads in Bengali.  I do like <a href="http://www.poetryoutloud.org/poems/poem.html?id=174937" rel="nofollow">Where the mind is without fear</a>, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Freeze</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60184</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Freeze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60184</guid>
		<description>Rabindranath Tagore won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1913, and although his name still rings a small bell in the brains of American readers, almost nobody actually reads his poems in English, even among people who read poetry all the time. 

Existing English translations are so treacly and "edifying" that it's tempting to blame them on the translators, but this is not only a mistake; it actually turns the real relation between Tagore and his best translator exactly upside down.

Juan Ramon Jimenez' translations of Tagore into Spanish began with English versions prepared by Tagore himself, and Tagore was a peerlessly terrible translator of his own poems. Everything undergoes a Hallmark-card transmogrification: every child turns into a &lt;em&gt;baby,&lt;/em&gt; every flower turns into a &lt;em&gt;blossom,&lt;/em&gt; and in spite of a certain colonial obsequiousness in Tagore's prefaces, his condescension to the target market of kitsch-intoxicated pre-WWI British readers is unmistakable.

Jimenez translated this rubbish into poetry literally as a labor of love for his co-translator and future wife, Zenobia Camprubi. The 22 volumes of Tagore they published together made her name familiar to readers from Cadiz to Tierra del Fuego, and established Rabindranath Tagore as a major influence on a whole generation of Spanish and Latin American poets. 

This was a disaster for Juan Ramon Jimenez.

Tagore had been transformed into Jimenez so successfully that Jimenez disappeared. His own poetry looked like an afterthought to the inwardly inane but outwardly melodious and monumental Rabindranath Tagore, and it was only after dozens of other translators had failed to rediscover Jimenez' &lt;em&gt;poesía pura&lt;/em&gt; in the original Bengali that the real genius of Juan Ramon Jimenez was finally recognized with the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1956.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabindranath Tagore won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1913, and although his name still rings a small bell in the brains of American readers, almost nobody actually reads his poems in English, even among people who read poetry all the time. </p>
<p>Existing English translations are so treacly and &#8220;edifying&#8221; that it&#8217;s tempting to blame them on the translators, but this is not only a mistake; it actually turns the real relation between Tagore and his best translator exactly upside down.</p>
<p>Juan Ramon Jimenez&#8217; translations of Tagore into Spanish began with English versions prepared by Tagore himself, and Tagore was a peerlessly terrible translator of his own poems. Everything undergoes a Hallmark-card transmogrification: every child turns into a <em>baby,</em> every flower turns into a <em>blossom,</em> and in spite of a certain colonial obsequiousness in Tagore&#8217;s prefaces, his condescension to the target market of kitsch-intoxicated pre-WWI British readers is unmistakable.</p>
<p>Jimenez translated this rubbish into poetry literally as a labor of love for his co-translator and future wife, Zenobia Camprubi. The 22 volumes of Tagore they published together made her name familiar to readers from Cadiz to Tierra del Fuego, and established Rabindranath Tagore as a major influence on a whole generation of Spanish and Latin American poets. </p>
<p>This was a disaster for Juan Ramon Jimenez.</p>
<p>Tagore had been transformed into Jimenez so successfully that Jimenez disappeared. His own poetry looked like an afterthought to the inwardly inane but outwardly melodious and monumental Rabindranath Tagore, and it was only after dozens of other translators had failed to rediscover Jimenez&#8217; <em>poesía pura</em> in the original Bengali that the real genius of Juan Ramon Jimenez was finally recognized with the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1956.</p>
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		<title>By: Shiva</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60145</link>
		<dc:creator>Shiva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60145</guid>
		<description>Netscape you fools!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Netscape you fools!</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60119</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60119</guid>
		<description>Is there some other Internet that I should be using?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there some other Internet that I should be using?</p>
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		<title>By: Robbie</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60105</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60105</guid>
		<description>I suspect that by "the Internet" Walt actually means "Google" (and that he nolonger makes the distinction).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that by &#8220;the Internet&#8221; Walt actually means &#8220;Google&#8221; (and that he nolonger makes the distinction).</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Vos Post</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60104</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Vos Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60104</guid>
		<description>My great-uncle, a famous portrait photographer, took one of the most reproduced photos of Rabindranath Tagore. when the latter first came to New York.

When my great-uncle took a famous photograph of Albert Einstein, Einstein asked whom he had recently photographed. "Rabindranath Tagore," said my great-Uncle, who then said something about Ramanujan from Tagore.  It was sufficiently garbled by hearsay that Einstein said: "Oh. Simple arithmetic."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My great-uncle, a famous portrait photographer, took one of the most reproduced photos of Rabindranath Tagore. when the latter first came to New York.</p>
<p>When my great-uncle took a famous photograph of Albert Einstein, Einstein asked whom he had recently photographed. &#8220;Rabindranath Tagore,&#8221; said my great-Uncle, who then said something about Ramanujan from Tagore.  It was sufficiently garbled by hearsay that Einstein said: &#8220;Oh. Simple arithmetic.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60100</link>
		<dc:creator>John Baez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 06:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60100</guid>
		<description>Who is "the Internet"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is &#8220;the Internet&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60075</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60075</guid>
		<description>According to the Internet, the whole quote is from Tagore.  And the Internet can never be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the Internet, the whole quote is from Tagore.  And the Internet can never be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Eppstein</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2008/06/01/spam-must-go-on-it-will-go-on/#comment-60071</link>
		<dc:creator>D. Eppstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=666#comment-60071</guid>
		<description>I thought the usual attribution of that sentiment was to &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inveniam_viam" rel="nofollow"&gt;Hannibal&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the usual attribution of that sentiment was to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inveniam_viam" rel="nofollow">Hannibal</a>.</p>
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