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	<title>Comments on: Spinning the Superweb</title>
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	<description>Dedicated to the mathematical arts.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65411</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65411</guid>
		<description>Wow!

I can't say how &lt;strong&gt;strongly&lt;/strong&gt; I disagree.

Consider the statement:

&lt;blockquote&gt;QCD is a confining gauge theory&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You &lt;strong&gt;cannot&lt;/strong&gt; take the non-observation of free quarks as evidence for the above proposition.

The evidence for that proposition comes from theoretical work (both analytical and numerical, using Lattice Gauge Theory). In the absence of that &lt;em&gt;theoretical justification&lt;/em&gt;, the non-observation of free quarks would be viewed as evidence &lt;strong&gt;against&lt;/strong&gt; QCD, rather than for it.

Consider another proposition:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The nonrelativistic quark model &lt;em&gt;explains&lt;/em&gt; the Δ=1/2 Rule.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would argue &lt;em&gt;against&lt;/em&gt; this proposition, on the grounds that the nonrelativistic quark model is not a-priori &lt;em&gt;theoretically&lt;/em&gt; justified. To "explain" the Δ=1/2 Rule, one needs to derive it from the underlying QCD.
(Having done so, you can, post-hoc, justify the applicability of the nonrelativistic quark model to certain processes.)

Phenomenological models are not "blessed by nature," just because they agree with experiment.

It's an (incorrect) caricature of the way science work to assert that agreement with experiment is a substitute for theoretical consistency and that theoretical consistency is only achieved when one has a mathematically rigourous formulation (ie, essentially never in Physics).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow!</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say how <strong>strongly</strong> I disagree.</p>
<p>Consider the statement:</p>
<blockquote><p>QCD is a confining gauge theory</p></blockquote>
<p>You <strong>cannot</strong> take the non-observation of free quarks as evidence for the above proposition.</p>
<p>The evidence for that proposition comes from theoretical work (both analytical and numerical, using Lattice Gauge Theory). In the absence of that <em>theoretical justification</em>, the non-observation of free quarks would be viewed as evidence <strong>against</strong> QCD, rather than for it.</p>
<p>Consider another proposition:</p>
<blockquote><p>The nonrelativistic quark model <em>explains</em> the Δ=1/2 Rule.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would argue <em>against</em> this proposition, on the grounds that the nonrelativistic quark model is not a-priori <em>theoretically</em> justified. To &#8220;explain&#8221; the Δ=1/2 Rule, one needs to derive it from the underlying QCD.<br />
(Having done so, you can, post-hoc, justify the applicability of the nonrelativistic quark model to certain processes.)</p>
<p>Phenomenological models are not &#8220;blessed by nature,&#8221; just because they agree with experiment.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an (incorrect) caricature of the way science work to assert that agreement with experiment is a substitute for theoretical consistency and that theoretical consistency is only achieved when one has a mathematically rigourous formulation (ie, essentially never in Physics).</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65407</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65407</guid>
		<description>The problem is that something like the mathematically ill-defined path integral is used to perform computations that are then compared via experiment with what obtains in nature, and so we know that the conjectured mathematics has some validity.  It is blessed by nature so to speak.   

This methodology which has worked well for physics cannot be carried over with the same confidence to where there is contact with nature.  Perhaps the best term for this field is not physics, but experimental mathematics.  It may be deeper but in principle no different from observing that 3,5,7 are prime and conjecturing that all odd natural numbers are prime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that something like the mathematically ill-defined path integral is used to perform computations that are then compared via experiment with what obtains in nature, and so we know that the conjectured mathematics has some validity.  It is blessed by nature so to speak.   </p>
<p>This methodology which has worked well for physics cannot be carried over with the same confidence to where there is contact with nature.  Perhaps the best term for this field is not physics, but experimental mathematics.  It may be deeper but in principle no different from observing that 3,5,7 are prime and conjecturing that all odd natural numbers are prime.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65169</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65169</guid>
		<description>I doubt things work quite the way you describe.

Per your example, I doubt there's much effort devoted to developing mathematical structures that would be relevant or interesting, only if the Riemann Hypothesis turned out to be false.

Someone working on a topic, sufficiently far-removed from the behaviour of N=1 SQCD, can afford to be agnostic about whether Seiberg's conjecture is correct, just as someone, working in a branch of mathematics far removed from any implications of the (truth or falsity of) the Riemann Hypothesis, can afford to be agnostic about it.

Someone working in a more closely-related subject has no such luxury. And such a person would be foolish, indeed, to predicate a significant amount of their own work on the "contrarian" premise that the conjecture is false.

&lt;blockquote&gt;if physicists can predict the outcome of thousands of experiments, the fact that they don’t have a rigorous proof is a minor nuisance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are other kinds of evidence, besides experimental measurements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt things work quite the way you describe.</p>
<p>Per your example, I doubt there&#8217;s much effort devoted to developing mathematical structures that would be relevant or interesting, only if the Riemann Hypothesis turned out to be false.</p>
<p>Someone working on a topic, sufficiently far-removed from the behaviour of N=1 SQCD, can afford to be agnostic about whether Seiberg&#8217;s conjecture is correct, just as someone, working in a branch of mathematics far removed from any implications of the (truth or falsity of) the Riemann Hypothesis, can afford to be agnostic about it.</p>
<p>Someone working in a more closely-related subject has no such luxury. And such a person would be foolish, indeed, to predicate a significant amount of their own work on the &#8220;contrarian&#8221; premise that the conjecture is false.</p>
<blockquote><p>if physicists can predict the outcome of thousands of experiments, the fact that they don’t have a rigorous proof is a minor nuisance.</p></blockquote>
<p>There are other kinds of evidence, besides experimental measurements.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65147</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 23:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65147</guid>
		<description>But that is what I would call a sociological process -- the process that I was curious to hear explained.  In one society, a reasonable person would ask for an alternative conjecture, and the opinion of experts is considered decisive.  In another society, skeptics owe believers nothing, and while the opinion of experts counts for something its weight is very small.  For example, the circumstantial evidence for the Riemann Hypothesis is pretty strong, and most experts think it's true, but this doesn't weigh very heavily.

And this isn't like the normal physics versus mathematics cultural difference -- if physicists can predict the outcome of thousands of experiments, the fact that they don't have a rigorous proof is a minor nuisance.  A conjecture about a theory that at the moment only exists inside human heads really is a gray area in a way that Feynman diagrams are not.

I'm not saying that the mathematician's attitude is the right one.  If Seiberg duality is true, then any amount of skepticism is a waste of time.  I'm just curious, as an outsider, how the culture of theoretical physics works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But that is what I would call a sociological process &#8212; the process that I was curious to hear explained.  In one society, a reasonable person would ask for an alternative conjecture, and the opinion of experts is considered decisive.  In another society, skeptics owe believers nothing, and while the opinion of experts counts for something its weight is very small.  For example, the circumstantial evidence for the Riemann Hypothesis is pretty strong, and most experts think it&#8217;s true, but this doesn&#8217;t weigh very heavily.</p>
<p>And this isn&#8217;t like the normal physics versus mathematics cultural difference &#8212; if physicists can predict the outcome of thousands of experiments, the fact that they don&#8217;t have a rigorous proof is a minor nuisance.  A conjecture about a theory that at the moment only exists inside human heads really is a gray area in a way that Feynman diagrams are not.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the mathematician&#8217;s attitude is the right one.  If Seiberg duality is true, then any amount of skepticism is a waste of time.  I&#8217;m just curious, as an outsider, how the culture of theoretical physics works.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65143</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 03:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65143</guid>
		<description>...but conjectures exist in a gray area.

Most of theoretical physics, indeed most of science, exists in such a gray area. There are very, very few results which can be said to have been rigourously proven.

At best, one can say that the preponderance of evidence (sometimes, an overwhelming preponderance of evidence) favours a certain conclusion.

In the case at hand, Seiberg and others have amassed a fair amount of evidence in favour of the conjecture. No single piece of evidence is particularly conclusive, but taken together, they have convinced most experts that the conjecture is correct.

&lt;blockquote&gt;So what if it’s just my opinion that Seiberg duality is wrong? I don’t have a counterargument; I just find the existing evidence not very compelling. What would be the reaction then?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think a reasonable person would ask for an alternative conjecture for the infrared behaviour of N=1 SQCD. One that passes all of the consistency checks that Seiberg's does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;but conjectures exist in a gray area.</p>
<p>Most of theoretical physics, indeed most of science, exists in such a gray area. There are very, very few results which can be said to have been rigourously proven.</p>
<p>At best, one can say that the preponderance of evidence (sometimes, an overwhelming preponderance of evidence) favours a certain conclusion.</p>
<p>In the case at hand, Seiberg and others have amassed a fair amount of evidence in favour of the conjecture. No single piece of evidence is particularly conclusive, but taken together, they have convinced most experts that the conjecture is correct.</p>
<blockquote><p>So what if it’s just my opinion that Seiberg duality is wrong? I don’t have a counterargument; I just find the existing evidence not very compelling. What would be the reaction then?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think a reasonable person would ask for an alternative conjecture for the infrared behaviour of N=1 SQCD. One that passes all of the consistency checks that Seiberg&#8217;s does.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65141</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65141</guid>
		<description>I've never said otherwise.  High energy theorists are interested in the truth, but conjectures exist in a gray area.

So what if it's just my opinion that Seiberg duality is wrong?  I don't have a counterargument; I just find the existing evidence not very compelling.  What would be the reaction then?

(Just to be clear, I have no opinion on Seiberg duality.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never said otherwise.  High energy theorists are interested in the truth, but conjectures exist in a gray area.</p>
<p>So what if it&#8217;s just my opinion that Seiberg duality is wrong?  I don&#8217;t have a counterargument; I just find the existing evidence not very compelling.  What would be the reaction then?</p>
<p>(Just to be clear, I have no opinion on Seiberg duality.)</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Gur-Ari</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-65138</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Gur-Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 01:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-65138</guid>
		<description>Walt: I'm not getting email alerts when someone comments on this thread, hence the late response. Of course Distler said it but let me answer anyway.

If you had evidence that Seiberg duality was wrong, people would be very interested in your results. I'm guessing it would quickly become the "hottest" topic on hep-th, until the implications of your results were worked out. For example it would be interesting to understand whether you invalidated all the isomorphisms or just some of them.

You would certainly not be ignored simply because what you say goes against current belief. High energy theorists are interested in the truth, just like other scientists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt: I&#8217;m not getting email alerts when someone comments on this thread, hence the late response. Of course Distler said it but let me answer anyway.</p>
<p>If you had evidence that Seiberg duality was wrong, people would be very interested in your results. I&#8217;m guessing it would quickly become the &#8220;hottest&#8221; topic on hep-th, until the implications of your results were worked out. For example it would be interesting to understand whether you invalidated all the isomorphisms or just some of them.</p>
<p>You would certainly not be ignored simply because what you say goes against current belief. High energy theorists are interested in the truth, just like other scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-64611</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-64611</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What would be the reception if I announced that I thought that Seiberg duality is false?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

False always? Or false for particular values of Nf and Nc? 

Seiberg duality (and related developments) represent a huge advance in our understanding of the low-energy dynamics of strongly coupled gauge theories. But it's certainly not the last word on the subject. In particular,  if you discovered some feature of the low-energy dynamics that would &lt;em&gt;distinguish&lt;/em&gt; between the two gauge theories, whose behaviour Seiberg says is identical, &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; would be interesting ...

&lt;blockquote&gt;Jacques: That’s a very interesting result.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'm not sure it's that "interesting." In some sense, it's pretty obvious.

In any case, it's the sort of result one would be expected to &lt;strong&gt;know&lt;/strong&gt;, if one were writing essays on this subject...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What would be the reception if I announced that I thought that Seiberg duality is false?</p></blockquote>
<p>False always? Or false for particular values of Nf and Nc? </p>
<p>Seiberg duality (and related developments) represent a huge advance in our understanding of the low-energy dynamics of strongly coupled gauge theories. But it&#8217;s certainly not the last word on the subject. In particular,  if you discovered some feature of the low-energy dynamics that would <em>distinguish</em> between the two gauge theories, whose behaviour Seiberg says is identical, <em>that</em> would be interesting &#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>Jacques: That’s a very interesting result.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s that &#8220;interesting.&#8221; In some sense, it&#8217;s pretty obvious.</p>
<p>In any case, it&#8217;s the sort of result one would be expected to <strong>know</strong>, if one were writing essays on this subject&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-64610</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-64610</guid>
		<description>Guy: What would be the reception if I announced that I thought that Seiberg duality is false?

Jacques:  That's a very interesting result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy: What would be the reception if I announced that I thought that Seiberg duality is false?</p>
<p>Jacques:  That&#8217;s a very interesting result.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Gur-Ari</title>
		<link>http://www.arsmathematica.net/archives/2009/11/12/spinning-the-superweb/comment-page-1/#comment-64606</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Gur-Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arsmathematica.net/?p=821#comment-64606</guid>
		<description>I wasn't aware of this theorem, thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t aware of this theorem, thanks!</p>
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