Math and Science Fiction
March 12th, 2007 by WaltThis post by Mark Chu-Carroll made me wonder something. Compared to people in the sciences or computers, are mathematicians disproportionately less likely to like science fiction? I’ve only known personally known a few that were big science fiction fans, while virtually every science blogger seems to be a big fan. Are science bloggers somehow a non-representative sample, or is this a genuine phenomenon?
March 12th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
There are people in your computers, and yet you say you’re not a science fiction fan?
Anyway, these days I tend to like fantasy more than science fiction, but I’m a big fan of both.
March 12th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
I don’t know, but anecdotally all the friends of mine who are big sci-fi/fantasy fans are from computer science or physics in my undergrad years. I don’t know any pure mathematicians who are really into either.
I don’t count my fondness for Tolkien, since I really love his philology and mythology more than his fantasy.
March 12th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Although I am no professional mathematician (yet), I am a student of mathematics, and I enjoy science fiction and (especially) fantasy. I can’t say that I’ve seen any tendencies one way or the other about this, but I haven’t been looking, either.
I pretty much agree with MarkCC’s assessment of those books, incidentally. That list with his commentary will provide a nice starting point for a few books I haven’t read.
March 13th, 2007 at 2:52 am
Dunno. I am not a mathematician (I just have a degree in maths
) and I like SF, much more than other genres.
But it could actually be that bloggers are not a representative sample of population: we like to write, therefore we are likely to read a lot.
March 13th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Hm.. My comment from before seemed to get eaten.
I do not know any mathematicians who are really into either science fiction or fantasy. Everyone I know who is I met in undergrad as they went through computer science or physics, or I’ve met through them. My anecdotal evidence could be explained either by “math people like it less than physics people” or by “people going on to doctoral-level studies like it less than smart undergrads”.
I do blog, and I do read a lot, but I read a lot of other stuff than science fiction and fantasy. I don’t really count my fondness for Tolkien, because what I like of him is his philology and mythology, not the fantasy.
March 13th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I’m not exactly a mathematician yet, but I do agree with you; it’s tempting to conjecture that this is the case because mathematics is not, as a discipline, a science. Personally, I’ve always been more drawn to imaginative fiction in general more than either science fiction or fantasy per se.
March 13th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Most of the mathematicians I have known have not been sci-fi fans, yet most of the scientists I know are. However, many more mathematicians than scientists in my acquaintance are lovers of visual art, sculpture and music. I am sure there is something connected between love of these art-forms and appreciation of mathematical structures which does not relate to anything people in labs do with test tubes and beakers.
March 13th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Just to add data: yes, in my circle of friends (which features mathematicians, of which I’m one*, and computer scientists) the relation CompSci-SciFic / Math-{less SF} is quite clear. And this is in Chile, in the periphery of the West. I wonder if the phenomenon is universal (anyone from Asia out there?)
Interesting observation, worth researching!
*: yet I carry the computer-fan gene, which perhaps accounts for the 11/50 I have read from that list.
March 13th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Well, I am probably essentially the same data point as Walt, since it was the same department, but I do remember remarking that there was a far greater ratio of TrenchcoatMafia(tm) in the CS department. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that)
March 13th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Just to be different, I am a professional mathematician who has been hooked on (mostly) S.F. and (sometimes) fantasy from since I was about ten. I guess I didn’t grow out of it. My experience has been that mathematicians I hang out with read as much S.F. as the rest of the college educated population.
And to twist the conversation can I recommend Cryptonomicon my Neal Stephenson? A (reasonably well written) book that spends a number of pages on the Riemann hypothesis — and gets it right! OK, plenty for the computer science geek as well, but I am one of those rare mathematicians who likes working across the borders into computer science depending on my mood.
March 14th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Few Mathematicians who READ Science Fiction? Preposterous. There have been t least a handful of professional Mathematicians who were also AUTHORS of Science Fiction.
To begin with:
Eric Temple Bell
Caltech
Professor of Mathematics
[deceased]
Rudy Rucker
San Jose State U.
professor of mathematics and computer science
Vernor Vinge
San Diego State U.
Professor of Mathematics
(retired, so as to write Science Fiction full time)
Ian Stewart
University of Warwick
mathematics professor
and, to a lesser extent, myself.
Prof. Jonathan Vos Post
co-author/co-editor with Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke, Ray Bradbury, Richard Feynman…
http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/authorsP.html#JonPost
http://www.magicdragon.com/math.html
March 14th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Jonathan, you have succumbed to the biggest vice of Internet discussions: you have misread what I said to be something more excitingly controversial, so that you can argue with that more excitingly controversial position. I didn’t say that few mathematicians read science fiction — in fact, I’d bet they’re probably somewhat more likely than the average person to read science fiction. It just doesn’t seem to loom as large in the culture of mathematics as it does in the culture of the sciences or computers.
I like science fiction just fine, myself, though I don’t read very much of it any more. I’ve read 35 of the 50 books on Mark CC’s list.
March 14th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I used to read a lot of science fiction but when I finished the last good science fiction novel I had to move on to other genres.
March 14th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Cute Dan, very cute.
March 14th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Vice and virtue in one package, I suppose. The “culture of mathematics” is too heterogeneous and global for me to know. But I’m trying to be constructive, not trollish. Sorry if I hit the wrong tone.
See also:
Mathematics and Science Fiction
The Fire in the Equations
Dartmouth College Course 18
Winter 1999 (12 Hour)
Professors: Davies and Trout
http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/archive/c18w99/public_html/
Note: This is not the entire list of works of Mathematical Fiction.
What you see below is the subset that meets the following criteria:
Genre=Science Fiction
265 matches found out of 598 entries
http://math.cofc.edu/faculty/kasman/MATHFICT/search.php?go=yes&genre=sf&orderby=title
March 15th, 2007 at 12:04 am
I love SF and have loved it ever since childhood — starting with Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, then on to Tolkien, LeGuin and Lem, then Greg Egan, Iain Banks and Kim Stanley Robinson, and countless others besides. Life without this stuff is dull.
Is this because I’m too interested in physics to count as a “pure” mathematician?
By the way, Greg Egan is darn good at math.
March 15th, 2007 at 11:02 am
I didn’t mean to slight Greg Egan, whose work (both fiction and Math/Physics) I adore. I agree with John Baez’s list, my bias being that I’ve worked with Asimov, coauthored twice with Bradbury, was cited in print by Heinlein, and had many face-to-face conversations with Le Guin, Banks, and Robinson.
A little more on 3 of the authors that John Baez mentions, skewed towards the Math/Science angle. To get the hotlinks, see the web pages from which these are extracted, through
http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/authors.html
Isaac Asimov, born 2 Jan 1920 Petrovichi Russia, came to US 1923, naturalized 1928, son of Judah and Anna Rachel Berman, married Gertrude Blugerman 2 Jan 1942, children David, Robyn Joan, married Janet Opal Jeppson 30 Nov 1973,
BS Columbia U. 1939, MA 1941, Ph.D. 1948, Boston U. School of Medicine 1949-, Assoc. Prof. Biochemistry 1955-1979, Prof. 1979-
Died 6 April 1992.
Hugo Awards: 1973,1977,1983,1992
Nebula Awards: 1972,1976
Locus Poll Awards: 1973,1983
“The End of Eternity” (1955) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100
Best Novels” by David Pringle
In the 1976 Locus poll, asking readers to nominate their favorite author, Isaac Asimov came in #2 (with 238 votes), tieing his
leadership position with a similar poll in 1973, a 1971 poll in P.
Schuyler Miller’s book review column in Analog, and
ranking #1 in the 1966 Analog poll.
Ray Bradbury, full name Raymond Douglas Bradbury (1920-):
The Ray Bradbury Page:
Richard Johnston’s and Chris Jepsen’s comprehensive bibliography, with biography, news, quotes, and on-line writings.
The Ray Bradbury Page is a non-profit site and is in no way
connected with Ray Bradbury, Ray Bradbury, Inc., or any book publisher.
If you have any questions or comments, about The Ray Bradbury Page,
please feel free to e-mail me: Chris Jepsen:
Co-Editor, The Ray Bradbury Page
Ray Bradbury: old, invalid
Ray Bradbury @ AlphaRalpha
Bradbury, Ray old, invalid?
Grandmaster of SFWA (and hence Lifetime Active Member of Science Fiction Writers of America) award-nominated SF poems. Ray Bradbury is one of the immortals among us, who will be read a thousand years from now by beings on the planets of a thousand stars.
“The Martian Chronicles” (1950) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels” by David Pringle
“Farenheit 451″ (1953) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels” by David Pringle.
In the 1976 Locus poll, asking readers to nominate their
favorite author, Ray Bradbury came in #14 (with 57 votes), confirming his leadership position at #11 with a similar poll in 1973, #9 in a 1971 poll in P. Schuyler Miller’s book review column in Analog, and ranking #9 in the 1966 Analog poll.
Ray [Douglas] Bradbury, born Waukegan IL 22 Aug 1920, son of Leonard Spaulding Bradbury and Esther Marie Moberg, married Marguerite Susan McClure 27 Sep 1947, children Susan Marguerite, Ramona, Bettina,
Alexandra…
Ray Bradbury has also had a number of distinguished co-authors,
including: Jonathan Vos Post who is
the Co-Webmaster of the Magic Dragon Multimedia domain including The Ultimate Science Fiction Web Guide:
* “Quatrains from The Martian Chronicles”, Ray Bradbury and Jonathan V. Post,
[Space and Time, No.81, Spring 1993] ISSN 0271-2512, published twice a year by
Space & Time, 138 W. 70th St. (4B), New York, NY, 10023-4432, in association with
Emerald City Publishing (C.E.O.: Jonathan V. Post), subscriptions were 2/$10.00 (no longer for sale)
Robert Anson Heinlein, born 7 July 1907 in Butler, Missouri,
3rd of seven children of Bam Lyle Heinlein and Rex Ivar Heinlein.
Moved to Kansas City, MO, during childhood. Attended a local junior high school, then Central High School in Kansas City, then a year at a junior college. Gained appointment from Senator James Reed to enter United States Naval Academy (where his next older brother had gone) in 1925. Graduated United States Naval Academy and was commissioned in 1929. Served aboard the Lexington under Captain E. J. King (later commander in chief of U.S. Navy during World War II). Tranferred as gunnery officer to the destroyer Roper. Contracted tuberculosis, was cured, and then retired (involuntarily) from active duty.
At age 27, he needed to supplement his small veteran’s pension. He worked as a silver miner, political campaigner and editor, real estate salesman, studied engineering further, and then entered a writing contest with his first story, “Life-Line”, and his astonishing career as an author began.
He worked at the Philadelphia Naval Air Experimental Station, where he came extremely close to getting the Navy into spaceflight, twice having his prposals killed, once by the head of the Philadelphia Naval Air Experimental Station, and once when President Truman was misinformed at a Cabinet meeting.
He was married for the first time, wrote juvenile novels and
stories for the “slick” magazines such as the Saturday Evening Post.
His novel “Space Cadet” (Scribners, 1948) turned into the television series “Tom Corbett: Space Cadet” — see my website on Science Fiction
Television. TELEVISION
He co-authored the screenplay of the classic film “Destination Moon”, and then was divorced in 1947. Shortly afterwards, he married Virginia Heinlein, who had worked in his section in Philadelphia.
Died: 8 May 1988.
He received four Hugo Awards for Best Novel of the Year:
* Double Star, 1956
* Starship Troopers, 1959
* Stranger in a Strange Land, 1962
* The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, 1966
He also won the first Grand Master Nebula Award of the Science Fiction Writers of America, the Sequoyah Award for the best children’s novel of the year (Have Space Suit–Will Travel),
many awards for blood drives, and a posthumous NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.”
Robert A. Heinlein
The Dean of American Science Fiction authors
“The Puppet Masters” (1951) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels” by David Pringle
“The Door Into Summer” (1957) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels” by David Pringle
“Have Spacesuit– Will Travel” (1958) is selected and praised in “Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels” by David Pringle
In the 1976 Locus poll, asking readers to nominate their
favorite author, Robert A. Heinlein came in #1 (with 297 votes), tieing his leadership position with a similar poll in 1973, a 1971 poll in P. Schuyler Miller’s book review column in Analog, and
ranking #2 in the 1966 Analog poll.
Regarding “Job: A Comedy of Justice” [1984] see “Afterlife” in: THEOLOGY
Robert A. Heinlein:
This item from Robert A. Heinlein was read as a speech by Robert A. Heinlein’s widow, Virginia Heinlein, when he was posthumously awarded NASA’s Distinguished Public Service Medal on October 6, 1988.
It was written in 1952, but its truths remain essentially unchanged.
THIS I BELIEVE
“I am not going to talk about religious beliefs but about matters so obvious that it has gone out of style to mention them. I believe in my neighbors. I know their faults, and I know that their virtues far outweigh their faults….
March 17th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
I wonder if the cause and effect is that science fiction makes people want to go into science, but it has no similar effect for mathematics? That would explain why it features so much more prominently in the culture of the science than in mathematics.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Walt:
That’s actually a pretty good hypothesis. I’d accept that there’s a SMALLER influence (but nonzero) of Science Fiction on Mathematics as opposed to Physical Sciences.
My parents were both extremely educated in the Arts & Humanties, with degrees magna Cum Laude and Cum Laude in English Literature from Harvard and Northwestern. Neither knew Math beyond, let’s say, the trig that my Dad taught pilots who were students of him when he was an officer flight instructor in World War II.
Yet, embedded in the Literary cosmos of Brooklyn heights, having my parents take to to cocktail parties at Norman Mailers’s home, and the like, I was indeed exposed to Math through Science Fiction. It motivated me very strongly, certainly more than my schoolteachers.
Specifically, the influences of which I was most aware included:
(1) Clifton Fadiman, editor,
Fantasia Mathematica, 1958
Subtitled “a set of stories, together with a group of oddments and diversions, all drawn from the universe of mathematics,” this anthology is not aimed at the Ph.D. candidate, but rather the layman. As a result, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to enjoy these quirky tales and poems, from Robert Heinlein’s “–And He Built a Crooked House,” a story about the difficulties of 4-dimensional home design. [I undersdtand that an entrepreneur today is selling 4-D real estate rights at a large profit]
(2) That led me to to Heinlein’s “Rocketship Galileo” where the teenager claim to know enough Math, and the father lectures them on how much more they need to learn.
(3) Fantasia Mathematica alterted me to other authors, whom I explored in the local library, and with the assistance of my pranrts who had in excess of 5,000 books in our home, in the same building where Death of a Salesman author Arthur Miller lived.
(4) My Mom gave me a copy of The Space Child’s Mother Goose, by Frederick Winsor, illustrated by Marian Parry, NY: Simon & Schsuter, 1958, which I read and reread until it fell apart. I didn’t “get” all the Math jokes, but they motivated me.
(5) Lewis Carroll.
(6) The Phantom Tollbooth (1961, Alfred A. Knopf) is a children’s book and a modern fairy tale full of wordplay and Math play. Written by Norton Juster and illustrated by Jules Feiffer, both of whom lived in our neighborhood and knew my parents, and thus spoke with me face-to-face.
Granted, I had an unsually good access to the Science Fiction and “mundane” literary world, as my parents edited books, but there must be others as influenced as I was, or even more.
My father, by the way, was:
http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/authorsP.html#SamPost
March 25th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I think I’ve already three books from that list! (the LOTR, the Anna Rice one and Harry Potter!) :/ And there was me thinking that I read a lot!
March 26th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
michael,
I’m completely serious. I love good science fiction, but now I have to reread my old science fiction books if I need a fix.